Etsy SEO: Tips For Optimizing Your Etsy Shop Listings
by Crystal Waddell on Oct 09, 2023
Selling on Etsy is a great way to earn money from your handmade crafts, vintage finds or unique supplies.
But getting your products noticed on Etsy can be challenging in the midst of a sea of sellers from across the globe.
That's where Search Engine Optimization (SEO) comes in.
In today's blog, we'll discuss how you can optimize your Etsy shop to improve your SEO and increase visibility for your listings.
We'll also share some tips from Etsy expert Nicole Lewis from Art.
Listen to her interview on the Simple and Smart SEO Show at the bottom of this article to get even more Etsy SEO tips!
Getting Started on Etsy
Nicole is an Etsy expert who founded a company called Art 2 the Extreme.
Nicole's love for crafting and entrepreneurship led her to create and sell handmade crayons online, becoming the first to do so.
Her first custom crayons were for children who couldn't grasp traditional crayons, and her passion for this project eventually led her to become a successful Etsy seller.
Showing Up in Etsy Search Results
According to Nicole, SEO is about "effectively using that magical combination of words that describe your service or product to get it in front of your ideal buyer or customer."
So how can you achieve this for your Etsy shop? It's all about optimizing key elements of your listings.
The critical elements of Etsy SEO are your product listings, tags, category, and listing attributes.
Search Engine Optimization for Etsy Sellers
To optimize these elements, your first priority should be to create compelling titles that accurately describe your products.
Additionally, the first two sentences in any listing description are crucial, as they are typically the only text visible before a buyer clicks on the listing.
Finally, avoid copying the title in the listing description as it doesn't help SEO.
Optimize Etsy listings For Search Engines
"Keyword stuffing" in the Etsy title might actually result in better Etsy SEO.
This technique involves using keywords in the title that people are likely to search for when looking for products like yours.
Unlike other platforms, like Shopify, "keyword stuffing" actually gives you more opportunities to rank for more query matching keywords.
Other Etsy Shop optimization strategies
To improve your search discoverability on Etsy and maximize your sales, here are some tips inspired by Nicole's experience and expertise:
A/B test your listings:
Try different titles, tags, and descriptions to see which produces the most visits, favorites, and sales.
Update your listings for the holidays and press:
People search differently during the holidays, and your shop's products might be more popular in some seasons than others.
Join Etsy's affiliate program:
This can give your shop added exposure and help potential buyers discover your listings.
Diversify and collect emails:
Build relationships with customers to expand your business by offering promotions, newsletters, and personalized recommendations.
Utilize Etsy SEO tools like E-rank.
which is created to optimize your shop's keywords for Etsy's search algorithm.
Etsy search engine optimization is key for the best visibility online for your shop
Optimizing your Etsy shop for SEO is crucial to attract more potential customers to your listings.
With these tips, you can maximize your product's visibility, reach more buyers, and increase your sales on Etsy.
Remember to be creative and use relevant keywords without keyword stuffing, update your listings frequently, and join the Etsy affiliate program to get your products in front of more people.
With Nicole's guidance and these strategies in mind, you can take your Etsy shop to the next level and reach new heights of success.
Listen in to our exclusive interview with one of Etsy's top sellers!
This transcript has not been fully edited. Please excuse any errors.
I do a lot of one on one meetings with Etsy sellers wanting me to critique their shops or give them tips.
So you asked about what was the most important hierarchy: listing titles.
And then I say that first two to three sentences in your listing description.
I've been on several trainings with representatives from Google for Etsy that say those first one to two sentences in your listing description is that prime real estate.
Don't use it to say, thanks so much for visiting this item. I hope you like what....
I see it all the time and it drives me crazy.
If you were inspired by your cat, fine.
But don't use those first couple sentences. That's prime real estate right there.
SEO For Your Etsy Store
Crystal: [00:00:00] Wow, we've got a special treat for you guys today.
Crystal: We are talking about Etsy and we have my girl Nicole here today who is an Etsy O. G. And probably the number one Etsy expert That you could find out there on the interwebs to let you know exactly how to do Etsy SEO.
Crystal: And Nicole founded a company called Art to the Extreme where she makes these amazing, amazing rainbow crayons. And her whole story
Crystal: is so special but Nicole, we are so excited to have you here. You are such an inspiration. Thank you for being on the show today.
Crystal: Hey, B!
Nicole: I'm so excited. Hello. Hello. And it's so nice to see you guys in person. I am a huge fan of the show. I listen every week. I tell everybody and their mother about your podcast because everybody needs this in your life. So.
B: Thank you. I'm excited to finally meet you.
Crystal: Brittany, Nicole.
Nicole: Hello. [00:01:00] Nice to meet you.
B: This is awesome. I'm so stoked to have you.
Nicole: Anyway. My name is Nicole. I am the founder and artisan behind art to the extreme home of the original rainbow crayon.
Nicole: So I was the first person ever to create and sell a handmade crayon online. Back before Pinterest, back before Instagram, or any of the social media platforms, and really, even before the early days of blogging in the early 2000s.
Nicole: I am the OG Crayon Lady, the Crayon Queen, people call me.
Nicole: I have been doing this a very long time. I am also a former teacher.
Nicole: I was an elementary art teacher for 10 years.
Nicole: And I was even teaching art from a cart.
Nicole: So I was going classroom to classroom at one of my schools. And I would see all these bits and nubs and stubs of broken crayons on the classroom floor.
Nicole: And I was like, it's Earth Day. I remembered recycling crayons and little Dixie cups with my mom when I was little.
Nicole: And I was like, there has to be a fun way to reuse these crayons.
Nicole: And... Make them into something new. And, back then there [00:02:00] wasn't silicone molds and things like that.
Nicole: So I had to get a little inventive with my students.
Nicole: But I think being a teacher really brings an awesome perspective into a conversation like this today.
Crystal: So one thing I do remember from Nicole's story that I read about a long time ago was, the crayons that she makes, they're like chunky.
Crystal: So they're made for little hands, but they're also made for hands that may not be able to grip regular crayons. And so for those of you guys who don't know, I was a former special education P. E. teacher.
Crystal: So when I heard that, I was like, Oh my gosh, I could think of so many kids that would totally benefit from your crayons, Nicole.
Crystal: And so just, another one of the reasons why I love you.
Nicole: That's what it's so funny that you said that because that's how I even got started making custom crayons.
Nicole: I had a student that could not hold a traditional crayon. So I was literally taking clay, squeezing it in their hand and casting the mold from that.
Nicole: To have a writing utensil that they could actually hold on to and just grip and make marks on the paper.
Nicole: Because being an art teacher, I'm one that [00:03:00] truly believes I don't want to touch the paper as a teacher.
Nicole: I don't care what the final product looks.
Nicole: The child should be doing it all themselves. I'm happy to show them on a separate sheet of paper, but that's where my mind went.
Nicole: I want them to be similar to the same thing with everybody else.
Nicole: How can I make a unique art tool?
Nicole: Because they didn't have all the different tools and supplies and stuff that they do now.
Nicole: The classroom was not that inclusive in the early 2000s when I started teaching.
B: No. And me as a massage therapist, I'm like, this is amazing.
Crystal: I thought you would enjoy that.
B: Okay. So we're going to be talking about Etsy, SEO, all the things. Of course, I love asking my question.
B: So Nicole, how do you define seo?
Nicole: I love this question so much because, I feel that SEO is effectively using that magical combination of words that describes your service or your product to get it in front of your ideal buyer or customer.
Nicole: What are those magical keywords when you put it together?
Nicole: Everything just. It works.
Nicole: And when I think of SEO, I'm not only thinking about my buyer, but also thinking about [00:04:00] members of the press who might be Googling or searching Etsy or Google for those top holiday gifts or stocking stuffers, the best birthday gifts for kids.
Nicole: And I want to be sure that I'm using those right keywords, not only to result in purchases, because we all want sales.
Nicole: But also those features and magazines and online gift guides that are going to continue that traffic and bring sales my way consistently over time over the life of that article.
Nicole: And, I always talk about this as crucial backlinks to help my ranking on Google go up because, we all need that magic.
B: Oh, I love that.
B: Your definition, it makes perfect sense for you because it even feels like almost like a rainbow crayon.
B: It's like we need all of the keywords to be in there so that all the people find us.
B: I love it.
Crystal: If people don't really understand what Etsy is like as a marketplace, can you tell us a little bit about Etsy, how it works, maybe how it's changed since you started selling there?
Nicole: So, I feel like Etsy experts and Etsy coaches [00:05:00] can be a dime a dozen, I feel like in the world we are in today, everybody gets very passionate about a topic, but a lot of people will say oh, I'm an Etsy expert.
Nicole: What makes me, Nicole, come onto a podcast and say let me tell you about Etsy SEO?
Nicole: Let me tell you about Etsy?
Nicole: I actually teach for Etsy's educational platform, EtsyU.
Nicole: I was brought on by Etsy about a year ago for the 2022 Etsy U education.
Nicole: So, I have actually been trained from Etsy.
Nicole: From their employees, from their headquarters on topics like SEO.
Nicole: I specialize in branding and getting press for your shop.
Nicole: And how to polish your shop to make sure that you're not only getting in front of those ideal customers, but you are also working on that know- trust factor.
Nicole: So I've been brought on by Etsy to teach about Etsy. I've also done a lot of that in the past.
Nicole: My shop's 16 years old, working on year 17.
Nicole: I have that unique perspective of seeing every single change Etsy's ever made.
Nicole: Which I think is a really [00:06:00] interesting perspective.
Nicole: I could talk all day about that for the most part. People have their own opinions about Etsy then versus Etsy now.
Nicole: But, because I'm an elementary teacher, I'm good at differentiating those topics.
Nicole: So, if you're listening today and you don't have an Etsy shop or you don't have interest in Etsy, keep listening because these actionable items can be used in your Shopify in talking about your services.
Nicole: There's going to be a lot of little gems that are going to move the needle for you today, even if you don't have an Etsy shop.
B: I love that. Okay. So my question, because you were talking about like, actually having insider knowledge with Etsy and SEO.
B: What are like, I don't know if you have to whittle it down.
B: What are like three places or three things that an Etsy seller should maybe know about using the platform?
B: And then people like me who are service providers could also maybe apply elsewhere.
Nicole: I'm going to go into a little bit of this with the actual SEO portion, but you need to make sure that you're using effective SEO.
Nicole: You also need to make sure, and this is my big thing, is your [00:07:00] photography and your branding is on point.
Nicole: And I know that scares a lot of people.
Nicole: You need to have, at this day and age, you need to have good photography.
Nicole: Because, say you happen to make it to page one or page two of Google or of Etsy.
Nicole: And now in a sea of products, people are trying to decide, okay, my, what I typed in the search engine has gotten me here to these results that should apply to me, but how do I choose which item?
Nicole: If I type in rainbow crayons, now rainbow crayon makers are a dime a dozen now.
Nicole: I'm the OG, I've been doing it forever.
Nicole: So I have great SEO, I have great branding, I have great photography.
Nicole: That puts me at the top of all the search engines on Etsy and Google.
Nicole: But people are going to, in the end, I personally based them off of a photo to start with.
Nicole: Because when I'm seeing so many different choices.
Nicole: I'm going to go to that photo first that looks the best.
Nicole: So getting your photography, getting your branding.
Nicole: -Because a lot of people think that people will just go to your page and learn more about you and look at everything you have to offer.
Nicole: No, people are clicking on one listing from typing in that search [00:08:00] and that's what they're basing it off of.
Nicole: And half the time they don't even go to your shop.
Nicole: And I don't think a lot of Etsy sellers realize that.
B: Oh, that's good.
Crystal: That reminds me of Instagram too, because it's like, people are always curating their feeds and all this type of stuff.
Crystal: And it's not impossible for someone to go to your page and look through your feed once they've figure out who you are.
Crystal: And they want to maybe know a little bit more about you, but that initial interaction is just like one thing.
Crystal: You're right. It's just one image.
Crystal: And so that's why, product photography is so important.
Crystal: We're not thinking about like, how can I make this the most attractive, the fastest for the customer who's looking for this particular thing.
Nicole: Yes, I completely agree.
B: When it comes to photography, are you, so definitely the look of things, but do you take the time to retitle your images?
Nicole: This is an interesting question, because of what I've done with Crystal.
Nicole: I have been working on that in the back end and making sure that I'm adding alt descriptions in Etsy.
Nicole: But [00:09:00] Etsy about two or three weeks ago has totally changed it up in their way and I'm not sure if it's put out to everybody because maybe I'm part of a beta test, but now when you create a new listing on Etsy, it's not giving us that option yet.
Nicole: So I'm still going back to the old editor so I can get that alt text description because a lot of people aren't adding alt text descriptions or titles with their photos still.
Nicole: Not a lot of people know that and that's a great place to insert those keywords that you want to rank for.
Nicole: But this new editor, I like it, but I don't because it's not giving me that option. It still gives me that way to go back. Alt text using the old editor.
Nicole: And I did see a note the other day that it says coming soon, you can enter alt text.
Nicole: And that's going to be really important.
Nicole: I don't, I think people downplay or don't even realize how important to have alt text with your images.
Nicole: But yes, I have been retitling them and that is because of all the things that I learned from Crystal over the last like year and a half of working with her and just having chats with her.
Crystal: Does [00:10:00] Etsy define SEO differently than, like we've talked about on the show or is there like a specific definition of SEO on Etsy?
Nicole: Oh, I looked this up because I wanted to be exact.
Nicole: I was curious of this question too.
Nicole: Etsy defines SEO as the art of optimizing a page so it can be easily found by search engines.
Nicole: So in more simple terms, how products are found on Etsy.
Nicole: So, very much related to what you guys would say, but.
Nicole: You want to optimize your page so you get your products in front of the ideal customer.
B: I'm constantly talking about optimizing. So I love that definition. Now I'm like, who can we get on here from Etsy?
Crystal: One thing that I think is interesting is that you described Etsy as a search engine and you said, Etsy search engine, dot, dot, dot.
Crystal: And I just want to take a pause there because I think. Just having that mindset shift as different platforms as search engines is so important.
Crystal: So whether you're thinking about Instagram or Pinterest or Tik TOK or Google or Etsy or Amazon.
Crystal: [00:11:00] Which Amazon is the largest e commerce search engine, on the internet.
Crystal: I think it's just so important to, just have that perspective that we're approaching Etsy now as a search engine. So how does this Etsy search engine work?
Nicole: So, the Etsy search engine actually is going to work in two different phases.
Nicole: It's going to work in something called query matching and ranking. And query matching and ranking.
Nicole: What's the difference between the both of them? So, let's give an example.
Nicole: When someone types in rainbow crayons in the search bar.
Nicole: Since, I'm a rainbow crayon maker.
Nicole: And I don't know if they're even typing in rainbow crayons, they probably don't even know that that's the gift that they want.
Nicole: But let's just say somebody types in rainbow crayons in the search bar and you need to make sure that your rainbow crayons are going to be within that shopper search and that query matching.
Nicole: Etsy SEO is matching your product with the shopper search.
Nicole: But you also need to make sure that you have a good ranking.
Nicole: Let's take that example, so the rainbow crayon search. If you're on page [00:12:00] 48 when someone types in rainbow crayon, That's not going to help get buyers to your shop.
Nicole: They're not going to see your products.
Nicole: No one's searching through 40 pages just to find you.
Nicole: So you want to make sure that your product is not only matching the query that someone's typing in, in that search bar, but you also want to make sure that your items are ranking.
Nicole: And that's how Etsy SEO works in a nutshell.
Crystal: Okay. So my question would be then, okay, how do I rank?
Crystal: How do I rank better?
Nicole: That's exactly what people want to know.
Nicole: And when a customer uses that search bar, Etsy is going to look into the SEO of items to match that actual search.
Nicole: So for that ranking, there's four main places that Etsy systems are going to kind of like look at and draw from for that best match possible.
Nicole: They're going to look at the listing titles. They're going to look at the tags.
Nicole: They're going to look at the category that your product that you think that your product belongs in.
Nicole: So that's really important in the list, the actual listing attributes.
Nicole: And keywords is a whole topic within itself.
Nicole: Crystal, [00:13:00] you're the one that really specializes in that you need to start thinking about what customers are actually typing in the search bar to find your product.
Crystal: So really quick.
Crystal: Is there one of the four or is that the hierarchy of importance?
Crystal: Listing titles then tags and category then listing attributes?
Crystal: Or does it matter in terms of which one's the most important.
Nicole: So that's the way Etsy, when they presented it to myself and the other Etsy instructors, that's the way that they ordered it.
Nicole: I really think, especially for Etsy, the listing titles are going to be really important.
Nicole: And something that's going to be different, if you have an Etsy shop versus a Shopify, and we can take my shop again, for an example.
Nicole: Your listing titles, that is the first spot I think about when using keywords.
Nicole: For that SEO. And listing titles on Etsy look really weird. If you were a painter, and you've made this beautiful painting of a sunset.
Nicole: And you want to call it sunset in the Bahama Island, that's not going to get your item [00:14:00] found. I know that's what you're.
Nicole: I know that's what your title of your work is called, but to be quite blunt, nobody cares.
B: They're not searching for that.
Nicole: They're not searching for that. We're not going to find you. And in the end, you want your artwork to be shown.
Nicole: Can you talk about that sunset in the Bahamas in your listing description?
Nicole: Yes. Further on down, but don't use that prime retail space in your actual listing description. Put sunset, and beach sunset in the Bahamas.
B: Yes. Okay.
B: I have a quick thing to add just because I want, I know that you were saying we can make this apply to service providers.
B: I made this mistake myself. I had a course, have a course for massage therapist.
B: It is CE approved because we need to get like continuing education hours and all this stuff.
B: I called it B Social. I thought it was so cute and clever.
B: Not a soul on this planet is looking for B Social.
B: They're looking for Instagram marketing course for massage therapist. So yes. Okay.
B: That applies not just to product sellers.
Nicole: I completely agree.
Nicole: I do a lot of one on one [00:15:00] meetings with Etsy sellers wanting me to critique their shops or give them tips.
Nicole: And one thing I see is a lot of fluff in that product description.
Nicole: And just like you were saying, don't mean to call it fluff, but I'm going to call it like it is. It's fluff.
Nicole: And especially in product descriptions and especially that first paragraph or so of a listing description.
Nicole: So you asked about what was the most important hierarchy: listing titles.
Nicole: And then I say that first two to three sentences in your listing description.
Nicole: As of a year ago, Google is now playing nice with Etsy even more.
Nicole: I've been on several trainings with Google people.
Nicole: Representatives from Google for Etsy that say those first one to two sentences in your listing description is that prime real estate.
Nicole: Don't use it to say, thanks so much for visiting this item. I hope you like what....
Nicole: don't include, I see it all the time and it drives me crazy.
Nicole: People don't know until they know, that it's primed real estate.
Nicole: So get rid of the fluff, especially in that first paragraph in your listing.
Nicole: You want to make sure that you are [00:16:00] talking about this product, whatever. Rainbow crayon is the perfect gift, birthday gift for a toddler.
Nicole: You want those words and those phrases that you want to write for in those first couple of sentences.
Nicole: Then later on, go into the middle of it and talk about your description sizes.
Nicole: If you were inspired by your cat, fine.
Nicole: But don't use those first couple sentences. That's prime real estate right there.
Crystal: Okay. So I have a question. It may be a little bit controversial.
Nicole: Okay. Yay.
Crystal: Etsy seems like the place where keyword stuffing is still allowed.
Crystal: And not only allowed, but encouraged.
Crystal: Because, when we talk about titles on Etsy, it's not just that it looks weird sometimes for whatever reason, but sometimes it's rainbow crayon, crayon for kids, rainbow crayon for babies.
Crystal: And it's every keyword in the title and there and those are ranking.
Crystal: Those are on the first page!
Crystal: Whereas in other places, we're saying, don't do that.
Crystal: So, do you have any comment on that?
Nicole: And I think that's something I [00:17:00] figured out early myself, even before Etsy trained me with that.
Nicole: And Etsy actually, I had a one on one with an Etsy representative on the listing side. And That's what they suggested to do.
Nicole: What they don't want you to do: do not copy your title and put it in your listing description.
Nicole: Do not keyword stuff.
Nicole: I know a lot of people on Instagram now are adding keywords.
Nicole: Not hashtags, but like keywords at the bottom of their Instagram posts or what they want to rank for on Instagram.
Nicole: Don't do that in your Etsy listing.
Nicole: So at the very bottom of your Etsy listing, don't put like gift for kids, stocking stuffer for kids.
Nicole: Don't have that down there because that's actually going to work against you in your favor.
Nicole: And I've actually heard that directly from Etsy.
Nicole: Listing titles as weird as they look.
Nicole: I actually don't pay attention to other people's listing titles.
Nicole: I type what I want in the search.
Nicole: I look at the photo.
Nicole: And then I directly go to how many reviews do they have?
Nicole: How many items have they sold? To see that know, like trust.
Nicole: Is my item actually going to arrive to me?
Nicole: Which is another thought that gets on people's minds using Etsy sometimes.
Nicole: Because there are shops on Etsy, unfortunately, that Don't have good customer [00:18:00] service or they have products from China.
Nicole: That's a whole nother topic for another day.
Nicole: But yes, that's great to do. I don't want to call it keyword stuffing in your title.
Nicole: I guess that's a call like it is.
Nicole: But that's the way that they've said that's the best way to rank on Etsy.
Nicole: Am I going to pull that title and put it in my Shopify?
Nicole: No way. It's going to look completely different on Shopify, but I don't feel weird or bad doing it on Etsy because it works.
Nicole: And in the end, I don't think as a buyer, I'm not looking at people's titles being like, Oh, that's, that's a weird title.
Nicole: Is this a real product? No. It's coming up in the search.
Nicole: I'm looking at the photos right away. I don't even pay attention to the titles, honestly, as a buyer looking at products.
B: That's really good to know. I definitely go straight for the reviews.
B: So that's, it's interesting to see like buyer behavior, which ties into my question that I have for you.
B: So I'm curious because I have my ways of figuring this out with service providers, but like, how do you figure out what buyers might have typed in that led them to your shop?
B: Are you asking the buyers?
B: Is there a [00:19:00] way to check that inside Etsy? Like we can on Google? Any thoughts there?
Nicole: So when I work one on one with clients I tell them start off by go to the Etsy search bar.
Nicole: And start typing in the first word of what you think that somebody would be putting in for you.
Nicole: If I type in a rainbow, it's going to start coming up.
Nicole: Etsy's automatically going to populate rainbow t shirt, rainbow this, it's going to come up with different things.
Nicole: So I like to see what people are already searching on Etsy and try to fit my product into that mold.
Nicole: And one of the unique and fun things about Etsy as from a buyer perspective is I can AB test.
Nicole: I have 200 products in my shop.
Nicole: I'd say 80% of them is the same exact product.
Nicole: But with a different first photo.
Nicole: With a different listing title.
Nicole: With different keywords.
Nicole: Because in the end, not very many people are coming straight to your shop and looking, wow, there's so many different name crayons.
Nicole: Are they all the same? Which one am I going to buy?
Nicole: I maybe get one person out of a thousand that asks me, Hey, are all these listings actually the same?
Nicole: I want to make sure I'm [00:20:00] ordering this for a boy or for a girl.
Nicole: No one's really going to your shop. I'm being quite honest.
Nicole: No one's going straight to the shop and looking at everything.
Nicole: They're going to the search. They're typing on search bar.
Nicole: They're clicking on a product.
Nicole: They're just finding if they're going to purchase.
Nicole: And if they need more of that, know, like trust factor, those reviews, then they're going to click on your shop and see, oh, okay.
Nicole: They have a nice banner.
Nicole: They actually fill out their about section. They have reviews.
Nicole: They filled out their entire shop. And that's something I would love to talk more about in just a moment too, but filling out your whole shop. But.
Nicole: They're not going into your shop and seeing that you have a million.
Nicole: So use listings to AB test.
Nicole: If you have two of the same product, put them up there.
Nicole: But I wouldn't test multiple things on one listing.
Nicole: So if you want to know which photo is going to get the most clicks, test out the photo and keep the titles and stuff the same.
Nicole: If you want to know which title is going to perform better.
Nicole: Keep the same photos for that first photo and test out different titles and see what works over time.
Crystal: As a fellow Etsy seller, that is so helpful.
Crystal: Understanding what [00:21:00] variable is a control variable is really important.
Crystal: You know what I mean?
Crystal: So I'm just thinking, I'm like, this would be an excellent freebie.
Crystal: Because it's like how to test your listings against each other to really find like you said, what the variable is that is making it work.
Crystal: Making it sell.
Crystal: So many times when I'm talking to other sellers, I tell them, look. With Shopify or with e commerce, the key is finding a product that people want to buy.
Crystal: And as fast as you can do that is, that's the quick way to success.
Crystal: And so you have just given us a gift, like a true gift.
Crystal: Of, this is how you measure it.
Crystal: This is how you can actually say, this is what's working and this is why it's working.
Crystal: Because so much of it is just I'm not sure why it's working. I just know it is, and so then when something changes or multiple things change.
Crystal: Just like Etsy is a platform that's going to change a bunch of stuff at once.
Crystal: We don't know what it is that we did that was working before.
Crystal: It's harder to adapt when you don't know what's working.
Crystal: So thank you for that idea.
Nicole: For actual ranking within Etsy too, [00:22:00] there's a few things that go into those higher ranking scores.
Nicole: And one of the A -B tests is actually going to give you a benefit to that.
Nicole: Etsy is looking at relevancy.
Nicole: They're looking at translation and language.
Nicole: They're looking at listing quality score.
Nicole: They're looking at recency. They're looking at customer experience score, shipping price.
Nicole: And shopper habits.
Nicole: And I think all of these could be a mini like TED talk within themselves.
Nicole: When we were talking about A B testing, relevancy.
Nicole: I always wondered how true it was that like, Oh, if I list a new item, is it really a little boost up that first few minutes or hours or days to see.
Nicole: And yes, Etsy, I heard it from Etsy directly. It is true.
Nicole: Every new listing gets a small temporary boost for that search engine to learn your listing.
Nicole: And that customer behavior that goes along with that listing.
Nicole: So A B testing is going to give you more opportunities to try that out.
Nicole: And see what our customers are clicking on this photo because it looks pretty.
Nicole: Are the titles working the [00:23:00] best because it's coming up.
Nicole: And this is the same for expired listings as well that are renewed.
Nicole: I always list often. And I do a lot of A B testing, especially using the different photos and adding extra listings of the same exact thing.
Nicole: If you make one of a kind products, and it's an art piece that you spent hours and hours on, you're not going to be able to necessarily list it twice.
Nicole: Because what happens, heaven forbid, great!
Nicole: If it sells the same thing to different people and they only have one of the products.
Nicole: So, it doesn't always work for everybody, but A B testing can help you learn a lot about what's actually working on Etsy and it might look different than what you use for Shopify.
B: You mentioned that you post often. How often are we talking?
Nicole: Okay, so I post after every holiday.
Nicole: It's like the next day or like the day of the holiday, because I do work on holidays sometimes, which sounds really silly, but it helps.
Nicole: It pays off in the long run.
Nicole: After every holiday, so say after Christmas, my listings are automatically getting a refresh.
Nicole: I'm [00:24:00] changing all the titles out so I can rank for Valentine's Day.
Nicole: Because it takes about 30 days or more to really start ranking for those items, and I don't... Have a lot of time between Christmas and Valentine's day to start showing up in the search for those terms.
Nicole: So. I'm switching my photos around.
Nicole: I'm switching with backgrounds and products that are related to that holiday.
Nicole: I'm switching my tags up my titles. I do that after every holiday.
Nicole: So Easter's past, I don't do a lot for mother's day. I'm going to start doing back to school.
Nicole: And yes, even some Christmas already.
Nicole: But for those of you that have taken an Etsy course with me or know me from social media or Instagram or from Etsy's blogs and such.
Nicole: I am really good at getting my own press.
Nicole: And June, the start of June is when magazines and online platforms are pinning down their stuff for holiday already.
Nicole: Which means I already got to be ranking for a holiday in June and nobody else's normal people are not thinking about Christmas in June.
Nicole: But the magazine world, if you're in a print magazine, that is starting like now.
Nicole: And so I do a lot of that prep right after Easter.
Nicole: [00:25:00] I'm switching my listing titles.
Nicole: I'm switching my photos to accommodate for whatever the next big holiday that I need to make sure that I'm ranking for and coming up in that search so I can be seen by members of the media.
B: So would it be a good idea?
B: And this is becoming at this from not being a product seller.
B: But my brain trying to figure out like how to get all the extra credit is.
B: I could have the same product listed for back to school, listed for Christmas, listed for whatever.
B: So that way, if you're going in and you're like revamping the same product listing, and again, I have zero idea of how this actually works, I just come to it from a buyer perspective does that make sense?
B: Is that something that a seller could do?
Nicole: Yes, and it's very smart of them to do that.
Nicole: And the way that I can hide it on my page is if I'm posting things for Christmas and I'm wanting to rank now for that.
Nicole: So members of the media can find my items.
Nicole: I'm manually moving those listings to page six or seven of my Etsy shop.
Nicole: Because unless you're really passionate about Art 2 The Extreme and rainbow crayons.
Nicole: You're not necessarily going through seven pages of the same [00:26:00] listing over and over and over.
Nicole: I it's there because I wanted to get picked up in search for people actually searching.
Nicole: Are tons of people putting searches in for stocking stuffers in May and June?
Nicole: No, they're not, but I specifically want to reach members of the media.
Nicole: So I'm included in all the different press articles.
Nicole: I've been in over 300 different magazines and online features, everything from this past winter.
Nicole: My rainbow crayon products were chosen for Joanna Gaines's Magnolia magazine.
Nicole: The actual in print, like one of 10 products chosen for that.
Nicole: I've been in pretty much every single magazine you can think of. From food network-
Crystal: give us a list. Give us a list.
B: Yeah. Yeah. Tell us everything.
Nicole: It's so wonderful because there's two different ways you can approach SEO with getting magazines, getting featured in press.
Nicole: So if you think about a hard copy magazine.
Nicole: If you're just starting off getting press for your shop.
Nicole: Because you want press for your shop, that know, like, trust factor.
Nicole: There's a million rainbow crayon people out there now, unfortunately.
Nicole: I am the OG. I've been doing this forever.
Nicole: [00:27:00] And I've really well established myself there.
Nicole: But how did I get to that?
Nicole: It's because I have all this press to back it up that know, like, trust factor.
Nicole: When they see my products versus somebody else.
Nicole: They're going to see mine as being the original, the highest quality, the best gifts for people.
Nicole: And everybody else, they can make their own assumptions about.
Nicole: When you say, Oh, I've been featured on Martha Stewart. I'm Joanna Gaines's top pick.
Nicole: Heck yes, I'm going to pick that shop owner and support that person, whether their products are more or less than somebody else's because I know these products are going to show up to my door.
Nicole: I know that they look good.
Nicole: Their quality is going to be amazing.
Nicole: And if they get to know that shop owner and their story, people want to get behind a story.
Nicole: People want to get behind a brand, a face behind that brand.
Nicole: You can just pick any old thing off of Amazon, but the majority of people want to feel good about doing something.
Nicole: To know an actual face behind the product.
Nicole: Don't be a faceless product or a faceless service.
Nicole: If you're getting that hard copy magazine, that's great for that know, like and trust factor.
Nicole: Hey, look, I'm in a magazine.
Nicole: What am I going to do with that [00:28:00] information now?
Nicole: I'm going to put up a video of me holding up the magazine on Instagram.
Nicole: I'm going to show myself going to Target and grabbing that Joanna Gaines 's Magnolia magazine off the shelf.
Nicole: And opening up to my products.
Nicole: Just because it's in a magazine, how many people are really typing in www. arttotheextreme. com anymore?
Nicole: No, nobody's doing that.
Nicole: You're in a magazine for that know and trust factor and to make that connection.
Nicole: But when it goes online, you're getting those backlinks to either your Etsy shop.
Nicole: You're getting those backlinks to your Shopify shop.
Nicole: If you're an expert and you're getting quoted in a magazine or on Good Morning America or the Today Show.
Nicole: Those are backlinks to your website and that's going to help boost your score in Google.
Nicole: And I know Crystal, you've helped me understand that whole thing.
Nicole: And you even looked up how many backlinks I had to my website at one point.
Nicole: I think you were shocked about how many.
Nicole: But getting press, making sure your photography is on point, making sure your story and your branding is on point.
Nicole: Those are going to help you get that next step to move you over the [00:29:00] hump.
Nicole: And to have people buy your products over somebody else that has a like or similar product.
B: Yeah, I have another question.
B: I know I like hogging all the questions.
B: Okay, so I want, I love the press thing I love the story thing I could
B: totally just talk to you about that for four hours, but we're not going to do that.
B: So I have a question because you're talking about all this press.
B: My brain goes to, you're going to get logos that you could use.
B: So are, I'm going to tie this in with filling out your entire shop because I'm curious again, I'm just a buyer here.
B: Can you use those logos to fill out your shop listing?
B: Is there a way to do that? Or are we only leaving that like on your website and on Instagram and other social media platforms?
Nicole: If you look on any of my listings that have been featured, it's not my first photo.
Nicole: I try not to make it my first photo because Etsy frowns against having like additional text and stuff in your image.
Nicole: And it just looks bad.
Nicole: But, on my second or third one, I'll have a picture of my product.
Nicole: And then next to it, you'll see all the logos.
Nicole: And that looks crazy because there's so many!
Nicole: And it's like I don't want to leave any of them off because they're all [00:30:00] big names.
Nicole: But I have all the little logos.
Nicole: And then I also have the Etsy Design Award logo on there.
Nicole: Not only do I teach for Etsy, but I actually placed among the top 10 in the Etsy Design Awards back in 2020.
Nicole: Which is huge because there's, there, back then there was like 5. 7 million shops.
Nicole: I think there were over like 8 million shops now.
Nicole: But to be able to be found and loved by so many out of like almost 6 million shops.
Nicole: I ranked in the top 10 of all the kids gifts on Etsy.
Nicole: But that's a big bragging right.
Nicole: And sometimes on my main photo on Etsy I'll have that little seal of approval as Etsy design award finalist Top 10 kids gifts.
Nicole: Because that makes my products relevant.
Nicole: It shows that people want these.
Nicole: It shows members in the media looking for products to include in the staffing stuffers and gift guides that, oh, this is the real person.
Nicole: This is the person that we want to feature. We know this is going to sell.
Nicole: Why do members of the media want to know what products are going to sell?
Nicole: Because affiliate links are huge right now.
Nicole: And Etsy, one of the benefits.
Nicole: I always tell [00:31:00] everybody that I teach on Etsy.
Nicole: And maybe Etsy doesn't like this.
Nicole: But you always need to have more than one platform.
Nicole: Because if Etsy was gone today.
Nicole: If Instagram was gone. If you lost Facebook.
Nicole: How are you gonna contact your customers?
Nicole: You need to be collecting emails.
Nicole: You need to have a Shopify or a blog or some sort of other list.
Nicole: But you also need to have an Etsy.
Nicole: If you have a Shopify only, you need to try to have an Etsy.
Nicole: Because Etsy is a free way to have affiliate links.
Nicole: And affiliate links are basically ways that influencers and members of the media can get paid for featuring your product.
Crystal: This was just a great, gentle reminder for me to go back into all my blogs and update my affiliate links.
Crystal: Nicole shared with me that now, as an incentive for Etsy sellers to push people to Etsy.com, Etsy sellers can use affiliate links offsite.
Crystal: Can you explain that to us?
Nicole: Yeah, so not only do influencers and members in the media use these Etsy affiliate links for products.
Nicole: Because they get a kickback from Etsy.
Nicole: I don't have to pay anything.
Nicole: For a member of [00:32:00] the media to use my Etsy listing.
Nicole: And every time somebody clicks on that for the next 30 days or whatever it is, that member of the media gets paid money.
Nicole: And so they know if I have a popular product, people are going to click on it.
Nicole: From the top 10 gifts to give kids over the summer.
Nicole: They're going to get good income from that. And they're going to continue featuring me.
Nicole: And that's how I built so many relationships.
Nicole: But. As an Etsy seller, myself, I can use the platform that Etsy uses for affiliate links for free.
Nicole: It's called Awin, A-W-I-N.
Nicole: You can sign up to use that.
Nicole: And I can use that with my own listings to bring not only customers to purchase from my shops.
Nicole: But to get a little bit of money kickback.
Nicole: Because what Etsy was noticing is like people like me that have a Shopify.
Nicole: I'm putting my shop at ArttotheExtreme.Com in my Instagram bio.
Nicole: I'm not putting, shop at this site on Etsy. com.
Nicole: I want people to go to my own website.
Nicole: Because I want to earn a little bit more money from the sales and purchases.
Nicole: I want traffic coming directly to me.
Nicole: And me being an [00:33:00] artist, I don't tell Etsy this, but I tend to look and see if these sellers also have their own dot coms.
Nicole: Because I know as an artist, I want to make sure I'm supporting that person.
Nicole: That they're getting the most from that purchase or service as possible.
Nicole: So I do try to actively do that.
Nicole: If you only have an Etsy shop, you can double dip a little bit.
Nicole: And make some money back from using that Awin.com platform as an affiliate link.
Crystal: As an Etsy seller that has felt a little bit hurt by the nature of business.
Crystal: Because business is business. It took me a while.
Crystal: When you're a handmade maker, there's like this element of yourself that extends through the product.
Crystal: So it's not just, I found a product online and now I'm shipping it to people.
Crystal: No, I have emotional attachment to the things I make.
Crystal: It's really important to me that people connect with it and that they connect with me.
Crystal: And one of the things that I had found a few years ago.
Crystal: Was that when I had pinned my Etsy shop listings to Pinterest.
Crystal: People would click through on that pin.
Crystal: And come to my shop where they would see my beautiful work.
Crystal: And all of [00:34:00] that effort.
Crystal: And then right underneath it was, Hey, you might also like these items from all of Crystal's competitors.
Crystal: So that's when my heart broke a little bit.
Crystal: But, as I grew as a business owner, I realized, you know what, Etsy has a business.
Crystal: And this makes sense for their business.
Crystal: But I am now more incentivized, like you said, to send traffic back to Etsy because.
Crystal: At that time, you couldn't sign up for Awin as an Etsy seller and promote your own products.
Crystal: So this is a great shift that they've made, I think, to heal that.
Crystal: That gap between, how Etsy works as a business and how they feel about their sellers.
Crystal: So, yeah.
Nicole: A lot of people have a beef with that.
Nicole: I feel like I've got a unique perspective of trying to see that full picture.
Nicole: People get very emotional about Etsy and what they're doing.
Nicole: Etsy is a business.
Nicole: It is your responsibility as a business owner to have additional platforms.
Nicole: To collect emails.
Nicole: To do what you need to do on your end, to make sure that your business is staying afloat.
Nicole: Honestly, Etsy owes nothing to you.
Nicole: They [00:35:00] are a platform. They can choose to do whatever they want.
Nicole: If they show your competitors below, you need to work harder and get photography up to speed.
Nicole: You need to have the best work on your SEO.
Nicole: I hate saying put more effort in that sounds like not very nice.
Nicole: But don't sit there and complain. Do something about it.
Nicole: Have the best photo.
Nicole: So they don't want to go to somebody else's shop.
Nicole: Make sure that you're giving the best customer service.
Nicole: And. Having that, that Awin option.
Nicole: If they do happen to click on a competitor or something.
Nicole: At least you're making a kickback from whatever they decide to purchase for the next 30 days.
B: Yeah. I love that.
Crystal: Yeah. And it's true. Those are the things that challenge you to become better.
Crystal: You just made a long list of things that's going to help your business get better.
Crystal: And I thank Etsy for that.
Crystal: Now, there was something else that you mentioned that I'm not real familiar with.
Crystal: And that was the listing quality score.
Crystal: And how it's your conversion rate?
Crystal: Can you explain that a little bit?
Crystal: I wasn't familiar with that.
Nicole: Yes. So your listing quality score.
Nicole: And that's your conversion rate.
Nicole: So, [00:36:00] out of all the people viewing and visiting your shop, how many of them are actually making a purchase?
Nicole: . Keeps track of that.
Nicole: If they're viewing products, but they're not actually purchasing them.
Nicole: Or shopping from you, that's going to send Etsy a signal.
Nicole: That your product might not be that good, or wanted, or didn't really be a good fit for that search.
Nicole: So that listing quality score, that conversion rate that you're making with your customers is going to tell Etsy a lot.
Nicole: When that your product came up in that search, was it a good fit?
Nicole: And if they're not clicking on it, you're going to continue going farther and farther down the page.
Nicole: Back to like page 50. Which you don't want to be.
Nicole: Everything kind of plays into that.
Nicole: As far as your photos, your descriptions.
Nicole: Even your shop.
Nicole: One of the best things that you can do for your shop is making sure that you fill out the announcement section.
Nicole: And your about you section.
Nicole: Another thing I see when I talk and I have one on one meetings and Etsy critiques with my clients.
Nicole: Is that their shop announcement, it's either not filled out.
Nicole: Or it starts off with, [00:37:00] Hi, thank you so much for visiting my shop.
Nicole: I hope you like all the things that I make. There's rainbows and sunshine and have a good day.
Nicole: And I say that in a way that's making fun of, but it happens.
Nicole: And when you don't know, you don't know.
Nicole: Use those, the same thing about the listing descriptions.
Nicole: Use it as first few sentences. If you go to mine, it says Art To The Extreme specializes in personalized name crayons and custom crayon designs.
Nicole: You don't want it to sound robotic.
Nicole: But, you want to make sure that it spits out exactly what you do.
Nicole: That it's covering those keywords that you want to rank for.
Nicole: And if you want to talk about your turnaround time.
Nicole: If you want to talk about all the places.
Nicole: That can go further on down the line.
Nicole: You can make your shop announcement as long as you want.
Nicole: I can't remember how long mine is.
Nicole: But you only see the first few sentences when you're just visiting someone's shop.
Nicole: Please make sure that you're using that as prime real estate and that you're not putting that bluff there.
Nicole: Same when you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the shop.
Nicole: It talks about the about section.
Nicole: So many people don't have the about the maker section for that.
Nicole: They don't have those five photos or videos.
Nicole: They don't have those keywords and those captions of those photos that you can do.
Nicole: And that is where [00:38:00] Etsy SEO is drawing from.
Nicole: They're drawing from not only your listing descriptions and titles, but they're drawing from your about you section.
Nicole: And they're drawing from that top announcement section.
Nicole: Those are places to stick keywords in.
Crystal: How important are videos in your score, versus using images?
Crystal: And what about free shipping? How does that go into your score?
Nicole: I'm glad you said something about videos because videos are extremely important.
Nicole: Especially with Etsy moving over to, if you haven't done so there's a new seller app.
Nicole: People have a love hate relationship with it, but it's going to be good in the end.
Nicole: We all have to get behind video.
Nicole: I think a lot of people have dragged their feet. And they're just starting to come around and say.
Nicole: Okay, I'm going to do video now. Every listing needs a video.
Nicole: Your listings quality score is going to get dropped if you don't have a video.
Nicole: You need a video.
Nicole: And I tell people, when I coach them, when I talk to them one on one and when I teach for Etsy U.
Nicole: I say, your listing can be as easy as you holding up your product and just moving it left to
Nicole: if that's a placeholder for now, great. You have a video.
Nicole: When somebody goes to the search and holds [00:39:00] their finger or whatever over the image, it's going to automatically start playing.
Nicole: Especially if you're on desktop, play around with that.
Nicole: Because if you start scrolling over some of the images, it's going to automatically start the video.
Nicole: And that's going to catch somebody's eye.
Nicole: Make it eye catching.
Nicole: It's 15 seconds long on an Etsy listing, you need it.
Nicole: It's going to improve your ranking.
Nicole: It's going to improve your position, and that quality score.
Nicole: Another hot topic for Etsy.
Nicole: People feel very strongly for or against free shipping.
Nicole: I have done free shipping up into, until this past Christmas.
Nicole: After Christmas, I switched to $35 or more as a test for me.
Nicole: I was terrified.
Nicole: That, "Oh, maybe people are going to buy other people's rainbow crayons instead of mine."
Nicole: Now that I'm not doing free shipping.
Nicole: Unless they do a $35 purchase.
Nicole: It made no difference whatsoever.
Nicole: I have more money in my pocket.
Nicole: I am doing less work for more money.
Nicole: And if people want to ship with a different brand or a different maker because of the free shipping, great.
Nicole: It is up to you to make sure that you are pricing your items correctly to make that work for you.
Nicole: That's going to work out like [00:40:00] 95 to 99% of the time.
Nicole: I know it doesn't work out for everybody that way.
Nicole: But you are not pricing your items correctly if you can't afford to do free shipping.
Nicole: Does that work for sticker people that have super light products?
Nicole: There are different occasions and there are exceptions for that.
Nicole: But in general, you need to make sure that your pricing is right.
Nicole: And you're going to do a disservice to yourself if you're not.
Nicole: Charge more. Charge more. Artists are not charging enough for their products.
Nicole: It, in the end, has a trickle effect.
Nicole: It affects everything.
Nicole: It affects every other seller on Etsy.
Nicole: It affects buyer decisions.
Nicole: That's another topic I could talk about all day long.
Nicole: But having free shipping and having the, I choose the $35 or more now.
Nicole: And I didn't see much of a difference or drop off whatsoever.
Nicole: In fact, I've seen more sales.
Nicole: And because people are buying, they have to buy two name crayons or two crayons to get to that free shipping.
Nicole: It does make a difference for that listing quality score.
B: And I was just going to say again, from a buyer perspective, I am interested in your story.
B: I'm interested in your product.
B: I'm interested if I'm actually going to get the thing and have a good experience.
B: And if I am, I don't care about the shipping.
B: If [00:41:00] I'm invested in, I like this, I want to get this. I want to work with you.
B: It doesn't really matter.
B: So, definitely price appropriately.
B: And don't be worried that people aren't going to buy from you.
Nicole: I agree.
Crystal: So how can people work with you?
Crystal: And learn more about making their shop better?
Crystal: I know it's scary right now, people are thinking, Oh, there's millions and millions of shops on Etsy.
Crystal: How could I even get started or how could I even be successful on Etsy?
Crystal: What would you say to that person and then how can they work with you?
Nicole: I would definitely take advantage of Etsy's education platform in the first place.
Nicole: There's tons of videos out there from Etsy U instructors.
Nicole: From Etsy directly.
Nicole: I think as we're recording this today, Etsy is having a full conference called Etsy Up.
Nicole: They do a couple times a year.
Nicole: Where they're giving you actual trainings on SEO from Google. From Meta.
Nicole: From the people that are making the decisions and doing the inner workings behind the scenes.
Nicole: So, make sure you're taking advantage of actual Etsy [00:42:00] classes, first of all.
Nicole: There's tons of coaches out there.
Nicole: You don't have to pay hundreds of dollars to attend so and so's random knowledge base of Etsy stuff.
Nicole: From what their opinions and their experiences are.
Nicole: Not to mock coaches whatsoever.
Nicole: Because, I teach, too.
Nicole: I say I'm not a coach. I teach, I offer one on one sessions with people.
Nicole: It's very interesting how I do this because I do teach for Etsy.
Nicole: That's completely free. They don't pay me for it.
Nicole: I teach for Etsy, but like I told you before, it's up to me to be able to use
Nicole: this to my advantage.
Nicole: If I want some sort of monetary compensation, how can I use this?
Nicole: My time is very valuable.
Nicole: I need all the time to create my handmade products.
Nicole: I don't have tons of time to have a one on one chat with somebody on Instagram.
Nicole: Or, on Google or through an email for every single person.
Nicole: Imagine if all thousand people tried to talk to me afterwards via email or voice chat or whatnot.
Nicole: It's overwhelming.
Nicole: So my way of bridging the gap is, I offer one on ones.
Nicole: Pick my brain sessions.
Nicole: Basically, it can be anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour.
Nicole: You can buy basically buy me a [00:43:00] cup of coffee and some child care because yes, those things cost money.
Nicole: My time is valuable.
Nicole: You want to value your work as someone that has taken the time to learn this knowledge base.
Nicole: But I have tiered pricing.
Nicole: There's three different pricing options for an hour session with me.
Nicole: If you can afford the higher one and you have gotten to know me and value my time and you want to work with me and that's important to you, please choose the higher one.
Nicole: If you are just starting off, but you really need questions of this and that answered.
Nicole: But you can only afford the $30 option, great.
Nicole: But it's at least giving me some sort of compensation for taking the time out of my day to work with you.
Nicole: And those options are available on my website art2theextreme.com.
Nicole: It's usually with the number two, I have multiple websites. So however you want to type in arttotheextreme. com.
Nicole: Or rainbowcrayons.com, it's going to come up for you.
Nicole: And I would love to work with you one on one.
Nicole: I can do an Etsy critique with you.
Nicole: Or if you just have one or two questions or need contact info, I am your girl.
B: That is amazing. Thank you so much for being here.
Nicole: I love what you all do. I have been a long time listener. I [00:44:00] listen to every single episode. My kids in the car listening know you guys as well.
B: Oh my gosh.
Nicole: They're going to be thrilled to hear this.
B: Mom was on the show.
Crystal: Let's give them a shout out.
B: What are their names?
Crystal: Let's say, Hey.
Nicole: Their names are William and Connor.
B: Hi, William and Connor.
Crystal: Hey, William. Hey, Connor. Thanks for listening.
B: Oh my gosh. That's so cool.
Nicole: I love it. I love it.
Crystal: I know if you were an Etsy seller, you cleaned up today. Okay.
Maybe listen to this again.
Check the show notes for Nicole's contact information.
And figure out what direction you want to go. But just know that you don't have to do it alone.
There are some great people out there. Like Nicole that can really give you the guidance and stuff that you need to be successful.
Crystal: So, we'll sign off and thank you guys so much for listening.